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Feature #14839

How to deal with capitalizing Georgian in Unicode 11.0.0

Added by duerst (Martin Dürst) 5 months ago. Updated 10 days ago.

Status:
Feedback
Priority:
Normal
Target version:
-
[ruby-core:87465]

Description

This is a request for feedback. In particular if you are from Georgia (the country, not the US state), or if you know somebody (who knows somebody,...) from Georgia, feedback on this issue is very much appreciated. If I don't get any feedback, I'll precede as explained below.

Unicode 11.0.0 introduces an upper-case version of present-day Georgian letters called Mtavruli (the lower case letters are called Mkhedruli). Mtavruli letters are only used to empthasize whole words; there is no initial-letter capitalization in Georgian. Therefore, the Mkhedruli letters do not have Mtavruli letters as their titlecase, but are explicitly mapped to themselves. This means that in Ruby, mkhedruli.capitalize would be a no-op although mkhedruli.upcase would convert to Mtavruli letters.

Additional pointers:
http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode11.0.0/#Migration
http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/Unicode-11.0/U110-1C90.pdf
http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode11.0.0/ch07.pdf (Section 7.7, Georgian, pp. 320-321)


Related issues

Blocks Ruby trunk - Feature #14802: Update Unicode data to Unicode Version 11.0.0Open

History

#1 Updated by duerst (Martin Dürst) 5 months ago

  • Blocks Feature #14802: Update Unicode data to Unicode Version 11.0.0 added

#2 [ruby-core:87466] Updated by shevegen (Robert A. Heiler) 4 months ago

In other words, we are looking for ruby hackers from Georgia!

Since there are ruby users in ~nearby russia and turkey (turkiye),
this should not be an impossible task.

#3 [ruby-core:89230] Updated by duerst (Martin Dürst) 22 days ago

Some notes summarizing some discussions on Unicode-related lists and my current conclusions from these discussions:

  • One problem is that fonts supporting MTAVRULI (using upper case to make it easier for everybody) are not yet available. This is a problem that should be solved in a couple of years. It is a problem for applications that use ALL CAPS programmatically converted from something else. This is a problem that should be solved in a couple of years.

  • MTAVRULI may not be used in the same contexts as Upper Case in other scripts. One very clear case is that MTAVRULI is only used for ALL CAPS. But this is covered by Unicode data, which means that .capitalize will be a no-op. The main area I can see where this can create problems is "Convention over Configuration" situations where all of lowercase, Uppercase, and ALLCAPS are used. If only lowercase and Uppercase are used, Georgian can be treated as an unicameral (only one case) script, similar to e.g. Hiragana. If only lowercase and ALLCAPS are used, then Georgian can be treated as a bicameral (two cases) script.

  • Some people (including at some point, myself) have suggested that some of the problems above (e.g. missing fonts) may be addressed by options selecting the pre-version-11-behavior or the new behavior. But making the old behavior default would mean that the new (assumed to be better) behavior would need an option that would rarely be tested in practice but would have to be kept going into the future. Keeping the new behavior as default would mean that old systems would have to be patched, in which case it's better to patch the fonts. So my current thinking is that such an option is overkill.

#4 [ruby-core:89248] Updated by duerst (Martin Dürst) 21 days ago

  • Tracker changed from Misc to Feature

Changed from Misc to Feature. The Feature would be to add some option(s) to relevant methods such as String#upcase. The baseline (Feature rejected) is that there is no need for options.

String#downcase is unproblematic. String#swapcase is questionable anyway, but assuming there are only monocase (all lower or ALL UPPER) strings in Georgian, it would work fine. It would only produce (non-acceptable) mixed case when starting from (supposedly non-existing) mixed case.

I just noticed that String.capitalize is actually more difficult than I thought. It is a no-op when applied to lowercase, but it will produce mixed case when applied to all uppercase text.

#5 [ruby-core:89259] Updated by duerst (Martin Dürst) 20 days ago

duerst (Martin Dürst) wrote:

I just noticed that String.capitalize is actually more difficult than I thought. It is a no-op when applied to lowercase, but it will produce mixed case when applied to all uppercase text.

On the Unicode mailing list, I got the following ideas:

I'm currently leaning towards the second proposal. It looks like this may make the operation a lot slower, but I think it's easy to avoid a major slowdown.

#6 [ruby-core:89276] Updated by spixi (Marius Spix) 19 days ago

The current implementation of String.capitalize is not just a problem in Georgian, but also in other languages like Dutch. Words beginning with „ij“ must be titlecased with a leading „IJ“, e. g. „IJsbeer“ (polar bear). This should be also considered when thinking about redesigning the case mapping code.

#7 [ruby-core:89312] Updated by duerst (Martin Dürst) 15 days ago

spixi (Marius Spix) wrote:

The current implementation of String.capitalize is not just a problem in Georgian, but also in other languages like Dutch. Words beginning with „ij“ must be titlecased with a leading „IJ“, e. g. „IJsbeer“ (polar bear). This should be also considered when thinking about redesigning the case mapping code.

Thanks for this information. The problem with this is that it is language-specific, i.e. it doesn't apply to all words starting with "ij" in all languages. Also, there's a character, 'ij', that correctly upcases to 'IJ'. Unfortunately, it's not very much used in Dutch text.

#8 [ruby-core:89331] Updated by duerst (Martin Dürst) 14 days ago

Link to (request for) feedback on this issue from Rails: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rubyonrails-core/fZUk1qXRT5k.

#9 [ruby-core:89359] Updated by webzorg (Lasha Abulashvili) 13 days ago

Hey all, I'm from Georgia so I hope I can help. I'm also Ruby dev and I heard about this issue from Akira Matsuda's post on Georgian Ruby Community Facebook page. So as I understood you are trying to handle situation when someone calls string manipulation methods on Georgian. Georgian as mentioned, is a single case alphabet so, converting mkhedruli letters to mtavruli ones upon calling .upcase is going against the OOP intuition. upcase, capitalize, lowercase and other methods like these shouldnt do anything to Georgian Unicode because these methods simply do not apply. Let me know if I missed the point and if the problem is something else.

#10 [ruby-core:89360] Updated by Giia (George Pheikrishvili) 13 days ago

duerst (Martin Dürst) wrote:

This is a request for feedback. In particular if you are from Georgia (the country, not the US state), or if you know somebody (who knows somebody,...) from Georgia, feedback on this issue is very much appreciated. If I don't get any feedback, I'll precede as explained below.

Unicode 11.0.0 introduces an upper-case version of present-day Georgian letters called Mtavruli (the lower case letters are called Mkhedruli). Mtavruli letters are only used to empthasize whole words; there is no initial-letter capitalization in Georgian. Therefore, the Mkhedruli letters do not have Mtavruli letters as their titlecase, but are explicitly mapped to themselves. This means that in Ruby, mkhedruli.capitalize would be a no-op although mkhedruli.upcase would convert to Mtavruli letters.

Additional pointers:
http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode11.0.0/#Migration
http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/Unicode-11.0/U110-1C90.pdf
http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode11.0.0/ch07.pdf (Section 7.7, Georgian, pp. 320-321)

100% correct

#11 [ruby-core:89361] Updated by Giia (George Pheikrishvili) 13 days ago

webzorg (Lasha Abulashvili) wrote:

Hey all, I'm from Georgia so I hope I can help. I'm also Ruby dev and I heard about this issue from Akira Matsuda's post on Georgian Ruby Community Facebook page. So as I understood you are trying to handle situation when someone calls strong manipulation methods on Georgian. Georgian as mentioned, is a single case alphabet so, converting mkhedruli letters to mtavruli ones upon calling .upcase is going against the OOP intuition. upcase, capitalize, lowercase and other methods like these shouldnt do anything to Georgian Unicode because these methods simply do not apply. Let me know if I missed the point and if the problem is something else.

Lasha, if someone calls mkhedruli.upcase, all letters shall be converted to Mtavruli letter, why do you think it should not do anything?

#12 [ruby-core:89362] Updated by webzorg (Lasha Abulashvili) 13 days ago

Giia (George Pheikrishvili) wrote:

webzorg (Lasha Abulashvili) wrote:

Hey all, I'm from Georgia so I hope I can help. I'm also Ruby dev and I heard about this issue from Akira Matsuda's post on Georgian Ruby Community Facebook page. So as I understood you are trying to handle situation when someone calls strong manipulation methods on Georgian. Georgian as mentioned, is a single case alphabet so, converting Mkhedruli letters to mtavruli ones upon calling .upcase is going against the OOP intuition. upcase, capitalize, lowercase and other methods like these shouldn't do anything to Georgian Unicode because these methods simply do not apply. Let me know if I missed the point and if the problem is something else.

Lasha, if someone calls mkhedruli.upcase, all letters shall be converted to Mtavruli letter, why do you think it should not do anything?

I was thinking, maybe because it is misleading, foreigners may think that those are real upcase versions of Georgian letters, but it is totally separate alphabet, and most of even Georgians don't know how to recognize them. Maybe call the method "მხედრული".to_mtavruli ?

update: I read the http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode11.0.0/ch07.pdf and now I cleared up my confusion with Mtavruli and Asomtavruli, I initially assumed you meant mkhedruli would get converted to Asomtavruli. Was not familiar with Mtavruli at all. I'd still say there's room for debate whether this should become a convention or not. Mtavruli looks like to be a good fit for commercials or newspaper headlines but I wouldn't say that it necessarily should be part of unicode or ruby for that matter. It looks more applicable to css/custom-fonts than backend technologies. disclaimer: I am not a philologist.

#13 [ruby-core:89377] Updated by mame (Yusuke Endoh) 11 days ago

Just FYI. Python 3.7 supports Unicode11, and behaves as follows.

$ ./local/bin/python3
Python 3.7.0 (default, Oct 12 2018, 11:29:22) 
[GCC 7.3.0] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> 'იანვარი'.upper()
'ᲘᲐᲜᲕᲐᲠᲘ'
>>> 'იანვარი'.title()
'იანვარი'

I don't know Georgian letters at all. (I copy-and-pasted the word (January?) from https://github.com/nodejs/node/issues/22518.)

#14 [ruby-core:89380] Updated by webzorg (Lasha Abulashvili) 11 days ago

mame (Yusuke Endoh) wrote:

Just FYI. Python 3.7 supports Unicode11, and behaves as follows.

$ ./local/bin/python3
Python 3.7.0 (default, Oct 12 2018, 11:29:22) 
[GCC 7.3.0] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> 'იანვარი'.upper()
'ᲘᲐᲜᲕᲐᲠᲘ'
>>> 'იანვარი'.title()
'იანვარი'

I don't know Georgian letters at all. (I copy-and-pasted the word (January?) from https://github.com/nodejs/node/issues/22518.)

I downloaded python 3.7, did the same and my output was ᲘᲐᲜᲕᲐᲠᲘ, these characters didn't show up either in my terminal nor in browser. how do I check what are they supposed to be? Cannot look it up here as well https://unicodelookup.com/#%E1%B2%98/1.

update: I could find the letters here, and I can confirm it is mtavruli (all upper case versions) https://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1C90.pdf

#15 [ruby-core:89384] Updated by duerst (Martin Dürst) 11 days ago

mame (Yusuke Endoh)

mame (Yusuke Endoh) wrote:

Just FYI. Python 3.7 supports Unicode11, and behaves as follows.

$ ./local/bin/python3
Python 3.7.0 (default, Oct 12 2018, 11:29:22) 
[GCC 7.3.0] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> 'იანვარი'.upper()
'ᲘᲐᲜᲕᲐᲠᲘ'
>>> 'იანვარი'.title()
'იანვარი'

Many thanks for checking Python. The results make sense given the Unicode data, and align with my current proposal.

Can you please try 'იანვარი'.upper().title()? I'm really interested in what result Python produces is that case. A straightforward implementation would produce 'Იანვარი', but as I said above, I'm not sure this is acceptable.

#16 [ruby-core:89385] Updated by duerst (Martin Dürst) 11 days ago

Hello Lasha, George,

Many thanks for your comments. Your input is very much appreciated!

webzorg (Lasha Abulashvili) wrote:

I downloaded python 3.7, did the same and my output was ᲘᲐᲜᲕᲐᲠᲘ, these characters didn't show up either in my terminal nor in browser.

Yes, characters new in Unicode 11.0 will not be supported yet in many fonts. If you hear about a font that supports Unicode 11 MTAVRULI (I'm writing this in all upper-case so I always remember what it is), please tell us.

On an Unicode mailing list, there was some suggestion to have a temporary option that allows not to produce MTAVRULI until people have upgraded their fonts. But it's difficult to know when people will have upgraded (different people will be earlier or later), and many other characters may also not display in all environments.

how do I check what are they supposed to be? Cannot look it up here as well https://unicodelookup.com/#%E1%B2%98/1.

update: I could find the letters here, and I can confirm it is mtavruli (all upper case versions) https://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1C90.pdf

Yes, the best way to check is to look at it with a browser (or other tool) that shows the character numbers. I just checked, and Firefox shows the characters as small boxes with hex numbers inside. Then one can use the Unicode charts at the above link to cross-check. Unfortunately, other browsers I have checked (IE and Chrome) only show empty boxes or boxes with question marks.

#17 [ruby-core:89386] Updated by webzorg (Lasha Abulashvili) 11 days ago

duerst (Martin Dürst) wrote:

mame (Yusuke Endoh)

mame (Yusuke Endoh) wrote:

Just FYI. Python 3.7 supports Unicode11, and behaves as follows.

$ ./local/bin/python3
Python 3.7.0 (default, Oct 12 2018, 11:29:22) 
[GCC 7.3.0] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> 'იანვარი'.upper()
'ᲘᲐᲜᲕᲐᲠᲘ'
>>> 'იანვარი'.title()
'იანვარი'

Many thanks for checking Python. The results make sense given the Unicode data, and align with my current proposal.

Can you please try 'იანვარი'.upper().title()? I'm really interested in what result Python produces is that case. A straightforward implementation would produce 'Იანვარი', but as I said above, I'm not sure this is acceptable.

Yes that produced 'Იანვარი', which I would agree with you, is going against the language rules (I haven't seen such usage of Mtavruli font anywhere, ever).

#18 [ruby-core:89387] Updated by duerst (Martin Dürst) 11 days ago

webzorg (Lasha Abulashvili) wrote:

Giia (George Pheikrishvili) wrote:

Lasha, if someone calls mkhedruli.upcase, all letters shall be converted to Mtavruli letter, why do you think it should not do anything?

I was thinking, maybe because it is misleading, foreigners may think that those are real upcase versions of Georgian letters, but it is totally separate alphabet, and most of even Georgians don't know how to recognize them.

I was surprised when I read that. I don't read any Georgian, but I have looked at the mkhedruli and MTAVRULI charts, and I wouldn't have problems reading one of them if I knew the other.

Maybe call the method "მხედრული".to_mtavruli ?

At the Ruby developers' meeting on Wednesday in Tokyo, somebody mentioned that the situation with mkhedruli and MTAVRULI has some parallels with Hiragana and Katakana in Japanese (one of the similarities is that it would be extremely odd to start a word with one of these, and then continue with the other). But we don't have any String#to_hiragana or String#to_katakana method in Ruby yet.

update: I read the http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode11.0.0/ch07.pdf and now I cleared up my confusion with Mtavruli and Asomtavruli, I initially assumed you meant mkhedruli would get converted to Asomtavruli.

Ah, I see. Asomtavruli indeed looks quite a bit different, but I understand that it's mostly historical.

Was not familiar with Mtavruli at all. I'd still say there's room for debate whether this should become a convention or not. Mtavruli looks like to be a good fit for commercials or newspaper headlines

Yes. But so is UPPER CASE for Latin, Cyrillic,...

but I wouldn't say that it necessarily should be part of unicode or ruby for that matter. It looks more applicable to css/custom-fonts than backend technologies. disclaimer: I am not a philologist.

It was apparently handled by custom fonts for a long time. And there was quite a long discussion in Unicode and ISO about how to handle it. The conclusion was that it should be added to Unicode.

Here are pointers to some of the documents in that discussion:
https://www.unicode.org/L2/L2017/17199-n4827-mtavruli.pdf (this is in both Georgian and English)
http://www.unicode.org/wg2/docs/n4827-mtavruli.pdf (same, ISO version)
http://www.unicode.org/wg2/docs/n4776-mtavruli-support.pdf (letter from Minister of Education and Science of Georgia in support)
http://www.unicode.org/wg2/docs/n4707-georgian.pdf (contains some actual examples)

Given that MTAVRULI is now in Unicode, Ruby has to handle it somehow. I'm not sure we can find a solution that makes everybody happy, but we want to make sure we don't do it completely wrong. So any further feedback is appreciated!

#19 [ruby-core:89388] Updated by duerst (Martin Dürst) 11 days ago

webzorg (Lasha Abulashvili) wrote:

duerst (Martin Dürst) wrote:

mame (Yusuke Endoh)

Can you please try 'იანვარი'.upper().title()? I'm really interested in what result Python produces is that case. A straightforward implementation would produce 'Იანვარი', but as I said above, I'm not sure this is acceptable.

Yes that produced 'Იანვარი', which I would agree with you, is going against the language rules (I haven't seen such usage of Mtavruli font anywhere, ever).

Many thanks for checking! such usage apparently has existed (see Fig. 1/2 of http://www.unicode.org/wg2/docs/n4707-georgian.pdf), but that was more than 100 years ago, so we probably better try to avoid it.

#20 [ruby-core:89393] Updated by mame (Yusuke Endoh) 10 days ago

Interesting. Python does not always satisfy a property: s.lower().title() == s.upper().title().

>>> s = "იანვარი"
>>> s.lower().title() == s.upper().title()
False

I agree with this if this result is natural for Georgian. But if not, I'd like to keep the intuitive property. Or, is there already any counterexample against s.uppercase.capitalize == s.lowercase.capitalize?

#21 [ruby-core:89394] Updated by mame (Yusuke Endoh) 10 days ago

Okay, znz (Kazuhiro NISHIYAMA) told me that the property is already unsatisfied. I don't object.

s = "s\u00DF"; [s.downcase.capitalize, s.upcase.capitalize]
=> ["Sß", "Sss"]

#22 [ruby-core:89395] Updated by Alan.X (Alan Benxton) 10 days ago

duerst (Martin Dürst) wrote:

Yes, characters new in Unicode 11.0 will not be supported yet in many fonts. If you hear about a font that supports Unicode 11 MTAVRULI (I'm writing this in all upper-case so I always remember what it is), please tell us.

Hello, you can use these BPG Dejavu fonts: https://bpgfonts.wordpress.com/2018/09/07/gnu-gpl-license-grant-to-linux-distributors/

Mtavruli letters are only used to empthasize whole words; there is no initial-letter capitalization in Georgian. Therefore, the Mkhedruli letters do not have Mtavruli letters as their titlecase, but are explicitly mapped to themselves. This means that in Ruby, mkhedruli.capitalize would be a no-op although mkhedruli.upcase would convert to Mtavruli letters.

Yes, It's correct. Capitalizing the first letter of a word is not expected in modern Georgian. For example in CSS, text-transform:capitalize property has no effect, because ICU's title-casing API leaves alone Georgian lowercase letters.

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